Hypercast: An ADHD Podcast
Hypercast is your companion through the world of ADHD, offering an authentic and engaging look at life with ADHD. Join ADHD coaches Melissa and Brianna as they navigate the complexities of ADHD with heart, humor, and expert insights. From discussions on the latest research to personal stories of triumphs and struggles, Hypercast delves deep into every facet of ADHD.
Whether you're newly diagnosed, a long-time ADHDer, or someone who loves and supports an ADHDer, this podcast is for you. We explore a variety of topics, from ADHD relationships, late diagnosis, and co-occurring conditions to practical advice on everyday challenges.
Hypercast provides a supportive space for open, honest, and well-informed conversations about ADHD, including the cultural misconceptions and stigmas surrounding it. Melissa and Brianna share strategies, tools, and encouragement to help listeners thrive and navigate a world not built for their neurodivergent minds.
Tune in for insightful discussions, real-life experiences, and resources to help you along the ADHD journey, and know you're not alone. Hypercast is your auditory haven, bringing community and understanding to every episode.
Hypercast: An ADHD Podcast
Neurodivergent Communication: Beyond Misunderstandings
Have you ever felt the weight of being misunderstood simply because you communicate differently? This week on Hypercast, we unpack the intricate nuances of communication, especially for those with ADHD and autism. We'll share how societal expectations force neurodivergent individuals to constantly adapt their communication styles, often leading to a cycle of over-explanation and frustration. We highlight how tools like ChatGPT can offer clarity and the importance of directness to prevent misunderstandings.
Experience the real-world impact of communication mismatches as we explore how unclear exchanges can lead to significant financial and emotional strain. Neurodivergent individuals often bear the brunt of these miscommunications, feeling the unfair pressure to bridge the gap. We'll discuss the emotional labor involved and the frustration of feeling solely responsible for effective communication. Our conversation underscores the need for mutual understanding and shared effort, whether in personal relationships, workplace settings, or friendships.
Effective communication is not a one-person job. We'll explore strategies like active listening and seeking clarification that can reduce miscommunications and their emotional toll. Our stories illustrate the feelings of exclusion and distress that arise from poor communication practices. This episode emphasizes the shared responsibility in communication, showing how mutual effort can lead to significant improvements. Get ready to transform how you communicate and join us next week as we explore the concept of the ADHD tax.
Melissa's Contact:
Email: melissa@likemindcoaching.com
www.likemindcoaching.com
Brianna's Contact:
Email: info@understandingadhd.ca
www.understandingADHD.ca
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Hi, welcome to Hypercast.
Speaker 2:Hey, hi, hello, welcome to Hypercast. This week's episode is about communication. The reason why this is so important is because we have been told so many times that we can't communicate, that we are bad at nonverbal communication, that we can't make eye contact, that the way that we are blunt or don't understand sarcasm or whatever means that we are bad, we are broken. We're the ones that need to adjust, that need to fix ourselves, that we should work harder on our communication. And while there is some validity to needing to work on things because there are people who are particularly unaware of sarcasm or are very direct and blunt and things like that Typically more so in autism than in ADHD and then there are also people who are like selective mutism and things like that as a result of, like energy drainage or masking or things like that, where they just can't speak in situations.
Speaker 2:Communication is an important skill, but it is also a two-way street. You don't communicate with the wall, you communicate with another person. So the gold standard of communication isn't how well you can communicate, it's how well the information you wanted to pass along is received. Yeah, so go ahead.
Speaker 1:Oh no, this week I received an email from someone and there was a sentence in there that made me go. How do I respond to them? I do not fully understand what they expect of me. I literally had to plug the email into ChatGPT and ask for options on what this person wanted from me. I did get some feedback from ChatGPT, which helped me make a decision on how to respond. It was just really funny, but the fact that the email lacked direct information required me to do extra leg work, so I didn't feel like I looked stupid in responding to this person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they failed at communicating because the message was not received. And that's not on you, that's on them. Oh God, it's so funny. There's actually a program called Goblin Tools, I believe, that does typically that thing of translating into something that makes sense and then translating it back, make it professional, make it personal, make it whatever, which I think is just a very amusing piece of technology to this, because people have acknowledged that this is a problem and that tone does matter. And when you're like over text, even sometimes over voice, my tone isn't what I've intended it to be Normally, when I'm really tired and have no more energy to make my tone what I want it to be. Why do you think that ADHD and communication is an important topic?
Speaker 1:There are so many reasons why it's an important topic. One because sometimes we, as people with ADHD, struggle to communicate what our wants and needs are to the world, and we also sometimes struggle to determine what the world expects of us Pause, because this is the funniest thing ever determine what the world expects of us.
Speaker 2:Pause, because this is the funniest thing ever. There is a thing that I saw where someone was like oh, it's a sunny day outside and apparently that meant that they should hang the washing outside. Oh, it's a sunny day, that does not mean you should hang the washing outside. What? What planet are you?
Speaker 1:That isn't what when we leave room for inference? That's where things get lost in translation.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's my favorite thing that neurotypicals do and I've seen so many jokes on the internet about like reversing, like clipping the script and being like oh I'm sorry, you suffer with neurotypicalism. It seems that you can't be direct with your communication and you have to make all these analogies and inferences and that's really detrimental to communication and you have to make an uncomfortable amount of eye contact and that must be really hard for you. Fabulous.
Speaker 1:But I've even found myself growing up not knowing what the world needed from me, that if I didn't communicate with detail, that they didn't understand what I was talking about. Yeah, or I've been frustrated by communication, so it's actually forced me to become even more detailed in how I communicate with people. Instead of just be like, hey, are we hanging out on Wednesday, I'm like yes, we're hanging out on Wednesday at 5 pm Eastern Standard Time. On Wednesday at 5 pm Eastern Standard Time, because if I leave room for anything, I then have to clarify 15 times and then I'm exhausted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So my other favorite thing is that, because we've been told that we were wrong so often, adhd people now have this tendency to over-explain. Because we need to ensure that we have been understood, because we've been misunderstood so often.
Speaker 1:I've never experienced that whatsoever, not a day in my life. That is sarcasm.
Speaker 2:I can tell. Also, communication is an important skill that we need to learn, but everyone needs to learn it. I lost my train of thought. Basically, it's that the skill is taught only to neurodivergent children as if they're broken, but it's taught to everyone as a skill that they need. But I've given up. My point is lost again. Men also can't communicate. There's been studies to say that it's gendered as well in terms of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, science has proven that women are more hyperverbal than men, and people with ADHD tend to be more hyperverbal as well. Yes, so when you mix the gender plus the ADHD, we like to talk a lot. People with ADHD sometimes are hearing shuts down. We look like we're talking to you, but there's nothing receiving on this end. So many times I'm in a conversation I have to stop and be like excuse me, really didn't understand what you just said, or I didn't hear what you said. Can you please go back over it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, auditory processing issues, there's often a delay, so someone will say something and then we'll say what, and then we'll answer the question before they've had a chance to repeat themselves. That happens to me so often. It's so funny. Did you not hear me? Were you not listening? No, I was listening. I just didn't process the information correctly. My brain is like oh, what's that meme? Like my brain is Internet Explorer or something. It just takes a minute. Just hang on, look at it.
Speaker 2:I'm trying so hard not to get on my soapbox right now, but I really want to tell you about this really cool study that I've had. Tell us about the study. I can do this in a minute. Do it, okay, listen to that. Okay. Are you familiar with the telephone game? Okay, our listeners might not be familiar with the telephone game.
Speaker 2:So, very briefly, the telephone game is when you whisper into someone's ear a message and then they whisper it into someone else's ear and they whisper it into someone else's ear and then the person at the end of the line then says the message out loud and you laugh about how much it degraded along the pathway. So you all laugh at the joke of you said the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and at the end of it it says pineapple on pizza is delicious, right, like? Somehow this message got completely degraded and it is no longer what it was in the beginning. Very funny.
Speaker 2:This study tested neurotypical people and neurodivergent people and they passed the message along the train and they found that the neurotypical rate of degradation and the neurodivergent rate of degradation when it was passed within their groups was the same. The neurotypical people were not better at having the message degrade or not degrade. It was the same level of degradation. What happened was, when it was a neurotypical to a neurodivergent to a neurotypical and passed back and forth, that was the highest rate of degradation of the message. So it is not that neurodivergent people are bad at communicating. It is that there is a cross-cultural because, remember, neurodivergence is a culture a cross-cultural miscommunication that is happening. There is a cross-cultural breakdown of communication that is causing the degradation of messages.
Speaker 1:Wow, this may be a weird question, but since we're talking about communication as culture, and since we're talking about communication as culture, the neurodivergence in your life do you ever feel that they're more fluent in ADHD or in neurodivergent than other people that you communicate with? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I would say that they just get. It is a common thing that I have said. They just understand me better. Or I don't feel the need to over-explain myself, because people with ADHD are very good at pattern recognition. We can jump to the end of a sentence. We know where you're going with your thought. We'll jump in. Oh yeah, that type of communication thing, Like we jump in we are worse at turn-taking that type of thing.
Speaker 2:It leads to a more interesting conversation. We can have two conversations at the same time. This duality of we'll jump back and forth to points, We'll circle back more often. Oh, like I wanted to say something about this, like I thought that I had earlier. Whereas with neurotypicals, if you're waiting to take your turn, you'll often hyper focus on your thought, missing the rest of the conversation. And then by the time you get here, now you've jumped back in here and they don't like that. There's some disconnect or breakdown. They're like why are you talking about that? We've moved past that topic. Whereas with a neurodivergent person, they're like oh yeah, let's jump back there and then we'll jump back here, and it's just more accepting and understanding and I feel so much less stress, less judgment when I'm having a conversation with a neurodivergent than I do with a neurotypical.
Speaker 1:I'm married to a neurotypical and I feel like he's a little fluent in neurodivergent you can learn language skills and different cultural communication patterns if you're around it enough.
Speaker 2:This is true.
Speaker 1:You get better at it, and on top of that, we also have our own ways of communicating. That prevents things from getting lost in translation, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because I'm a verbal processor, so he knows the difference when I'm making a point and you need to listen to me versus I'm just verbally processing. When I'm verbally processing, I may be wandering around, I may be mumbling a bit and maybe comparing different things, but when I want you to pay attention to me, I will stop everything I'm doing, I will look directly in his eyes and I will say the thing I need you to listen to me right now. This is the thing that I really need from you in this moment and that's like the no bullshit. I need this right now. But that's a learned skill on my part.
Speaker 2:Look at that nonverbal communication, that nonverbal communication that people with ADHD are supposedly really bad at. Not at all the case. That was an excellent example of nonverbal communication and your ability to use it just fine. Yeah, it's just different. It's not the typical way of doing the nonverbal communication, right? Yes, and because of our masking and because of our mimicry, we tend to mimic body language, so we are not really displaying our authentic messaging. We're reflecting back to you what you're looking like, right? So that's our way of showing empathy, of connecting with the other person, rather than as a way of communicating our demonstrate discomfort with our nonverbal cues, which neurotypical people tend not to pick up on. If there's excess, stimming, weak tags or any sensory discomfort, that type of thing in terms of nonverbal communication, which seems to be disconnected from what we're verbally communicating, right, so we could be saying, oh, I'm really happy to be here, and be like very closed off and very unhappy to be here. And neurotypical people don't experience that kind of disconnect. They tend to match their nonverbal to their verbal, which is another communication difference that culturally needs to be understood and not just like neurotypical neurodivergent, like an American businessman versus a Chinese businessman, like neurotypical neurodivergent like an American businessman versus a Chinese businessman, like one shakes hands, one bows and then physical distance. There are, like African cultures and Caribbean cultures, that stand really close together to communicate and there's less physical distance and that's a sign. But then in like Finnish or Norwegian cultures, you stand really far apart and anything closer is invading the personal space bubble and it's really rude. So there are different ways of communicating in different cultures that are respected already. Like it's already, there's this level of respect of oh, it's just different, rather than it's wrong or it's broken, and I want that level of respect for divergent communication. I don't want to be told anymore that I am broken or that I need to make more eye contact in order to be viewed as competent or intelligent or any of those things. Like I don't want to be told that what I'm doing is wrong or I need to fix it, because I want that level of respect.
Speaker 2:Sing it, sister, about your previous comment about couples. I find this very interesting is that couples develop a shorthand when you live with someone for a really long time and there's a meme on the internet right now going around my couple dictionary and they'd be like oh, we say this when we want to go to sleep and they're like, oh, you mean, should we be night-night? And I was like, huh, that is not English, that is not. That is specifically a shorthand between the two couples, and if you grew up with siblings you have that same thing. Oh, there's that specific like twin thing where you have this like specific language yeah, I had a neighbor once.
Speaker 1:I straight up told them I'm not good at people, that that was my way of communicating. I may not communicate the way you expect me to communicate doesn't mean mean I don't like you, it just means I'm a little different.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good point. We should talk about the consequences of communication, because the consequences of communication breakdown tend to be very one-sided, which is really unfortunate, right? So that example you said earlier of your email they emailed you and you had to go do that extra work to understand and email back so you didn't look like an idiot or whatever. It tends to be the neurotypical who feels like they're not to blame for the situation, no matter what side they're on. It's never, I didn't communicate that correctly, it's you didn't understand me. Or if they're on the other side, it's not you didn't, it's you didn't understand me. Or if they're on the other side, it's not you, you didn't. It's not I didn't understand that, it's you didn't communicate that correctly. But that's just this personal bias of I can do no wrong.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize right now, until right now, just sitting here, I always take the blame for the miscommunication.
Speaker 2:Yeah also a woman yeah because we've also been told that we're too emotional and that type of thing would impact us. Yeah, but just a general awareness and acceptance of when emotion strikes can help with communication. That's the same thing of if there's just an awareness and acceptance of difference, communication improves automatically. So if you know that there's a communication difference, then you'll be more accepting of those differences, rather than if you're expecting them to communicate the way that you do and they don't, now you're thinking that's wrong rather than, oh, that's different, how can I adapt? But that's, this is what I want. I want that acceptance on both sides. Melissa, have you ever experienced consequences as a result of mismatched communication?
Speaker 1:and didn't make sure things were like really clear, like explicitly clear, and that cost me three times as much money than they originally quoted me because of a miscommunication, and it hurt and it taught me the lesson that I can't sound sad, but I really don't ever feel like I can just rest and have trust in certain things without making sure that there's very explicit communication, because otherwise I'm going to lose something in the long run Financial consequences is what you're talking about. Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, there's also relationship consequences, because have you ever been in a relationship and gotten into a fight and they're not listening to your perspective?
Speaker 2:and you're not listening to their perspective and you can't actually resolve the problem because no one's really listening and even though you're trying to talk about it, no one's really understanding yeah yeah, very common, especially if you're in a neurodivergent relationship, where one of you is neurodiverse and one of you is neurotypical, or, I think, the other way around, if you're in a neurodiverse relationship where one of you is neurodivergent and one of you is neurotypical, or, I think, the other way around, if you're in a neurodiverse relationship or one of you is neurodivergent and one of you is neurotypical, because you're going to default, in times of stress and heightened emotions, to your default communication system and if you stop making that effort to understand the other person's perspective, put yourself in their shoes, to listen to what they're saying, to try and understand it and then to share your story in a way that they could understand.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of work and if you're already in a heightened emotional state, you're not going to want to do that. So it's really important to have that level of communication or there's going to be maybe a breakup, maybe a fight maybe something negative.
Speaker 1:I know this kind of takes us back to what we were talking about before, but that pisses me off a little bit because I feel like so much of the onus is put on me as the neurodivergent I have to put that effort in. I'm just tired and it shouldn't be.
Speaker 2:It should be equal. You are the one who is taking the blame for that, saying, oh, if only I could communicate this better. I've been told so many times that I can't communicate well. If only they could understand my point and you really want them to understand your point. And they're like why don't they understand my point, why can't they figure out what I'm trying to say to them? And it's never responsibility on their part because they haven't been told that they're wrong or broken. So it should not be on you.
Speaker 2:It should be equally coming together and the whole couples thing of like us versus the problem that actually works. Don't fight your partner, fight the thing together. But, yeah, same thing in like job situation, if you, if your boss comes to you and says, hey, I need you to do this thing, and it's not clear and you do the wrong thing, now you're in trouble at work. Yeah, yeah, like friendships, for example, if you're texting a friend and you don't use an emoji or a gif or they don't understand that it's sarcasm, and now you're in a big fight and they don't tell you that they're upset because it's text, so you don't know that you've done anything wrong and now that friendship is degrading because there was just a miscommunication. There was just a miscommunication. Also, if you forget to message back or something like that's a very neurodivergent thing to do. Be like, oh, I forgot about you for a few days and now they're really hurt and you don't understand that you did anything wrong, because you're like hey, I messaged you when I remembered and you should be.
Speaker 1:And the other way around too if they don't respond to us, then the rejection sensitivity sets in, and then we think that they don't respond to us, then the rejection sensitivity sets in, and then we think that they don't like us as a friend anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so really fun double-edged sword that one of. We often forget to message back. But when people don't message us back, we're like oh no, they hate us and we take it very personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, communication is very personal. It doesn't matter who you are or what your brain is like. Communication is actually really hard. To get your point across is really hard. We have to work a little bit harder to advocate for ourselves and I, to this day, almost always take on the role of person at fault because communication is broken down and it shouldn't be that way yeah, because communication it takes two to tango right like they're equally at fault for the fact that there was a miscommunication and it needs to be a collaborative effort to make sure that the communication is received in the way that it was intended.
Speaker 1:One's communicating properly and giving good information to really solidify what their personal needs are from somebody else, and vice versa. Then what do we do about it? Is this an education issue? Is it? It's like an?
Speaker 2:everything issue. Yeah, if there was more understanding from neurotypicals that it was a two-way street, that it did require effort on their end, that would immediately just help. Like you said, knowing is half the battle and then also learning how to communicate. Communication skills can be taught. They can be learned. One really good example is a check-in. Be like hey, did you understand what I said? Or did you get what I meant? Or could you repeat back to me in your own words what I just said? That type of thing. Just getting that check-in, that pause. Oh, did I actually understand what they were saying? Was that actually clear? Because it can help the person who was communicating realize oh, I didn't communicate that clearly enough, and also help the person receiving that oh, I didn't actually get their meaning. And then talking about things if there is a conflict or there is something that's come up, not just ignoring it and being like hey, you said this, it really hurt me. Did you mean to hurt me? Did you mean to say it like that? Did you mean it in this way?
Speaker 1:and just clarifying on that end so Not making assumptions about what someone's trying to do with their form of communication Exactly.
Speaker 2:But did you see that it was a two-way street there? The person who delivered the information could ask hey, did you understand my message the way I intended it? And the person receiving the message was, hey, did you intend to give that message this way? Directions, it's not one direction, one direction.
Speaker 1:Anyone could really benefit from this level of communication. We like to send text with one or two words and the person on the other end doesn't understand what you necessarily mean. There's no tone, there's no direction and it can be seen as rude to ask did you interpret the thing I said the way I meant it? I wish that we could get over that kind of thing in society, that asking for clarity is rude. Oh.
Speaker 2:God, that's what I hate the most that asking for clarity is seen as a challenge. Yes, or did you mean it that way, or I don't understand.
Speaker 1:And then you start a whole fight because of the way they take that question.
Speaker 2:That upsets me so much. Asking for why, asking for further clarification, and they're like upset.
Speaker 1:That needs to stop, because they feel you're questioning who they are or what their intentions are.
Speaker 2:But it's not that we're just trying to get more clarification, we're just trying to understand. This type of communication skill would benefit everyone. Everyone needs to learn to communicate better. It would solve even just in neurotypical. It would solve so many issues with relationships and jobs and communication and everything but between us. It would really improve because there's this cross-cultural communication breakdown. The reason it is so important for people with ADHD is because we are disproportionately negatively affected by it. So let me go on a little bit of a soapbox here about my research, because this is my master's thesis.
Speaker 2:My study was basically that when these miscommunications, they disproportionately occur in when neurodivergent people are involved. So more miscommunication happens around us because the world is built for neurotypicals, the workplace is built for neurotypicals and communication is built for neurotypicals, so when a neurodivergent pops in, they're like hey, I do it differently. We're going to experience more miscommunication as a result. As a result of that more miscommunication, we are also more emotionally impacted by it, right? So if there is a miscommunication, the neurotypical person will not be as harmed by that miscommunication as the neurodivergent person.
Speaker 2:What we were talking about with the rejection sensitivity with the I feel like it's my fault. I have to overexplain. It's a more significant emotional impact. Then that more significant emotional impact also has more impact in relationships and jobs and everything like that. It's a three-step process. There is more miscommunication. That miscommunication results in more emotional burden, and more emotional burden is disproportionately larger and causes more problems as a result. But yeah, so that's why it's so important and why communication is like my passion topic, because it's such an easy fix. Teaching communication skills is so simple and it's been done for years and would solve enormous amount of our problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things like active listening, including detail when you're communicating with people, and verification, like you were saying. Do you understand what I'm communicating to you, especially in written form? There are a lot of people with ADHD Because our working memories are so bad. Getting things in written form is actually really beneficial.
Speaker 2:It's another weird dichotomy in that I also need things in written form. Like I cannot process like multi-step directions verbally, but also I find verbal processing really helpful. So I need to say things out loud and understand things out loud and be explained things out loud, but I need that written format to refer back, to trigger the memory in the thought yeah, so you need both, both. Have you ever been in a situation where someone has said, oh, we're all grabbing lunch and you're like, oh, okay, have fun, and that kind of implied would you like to come?
Speaker 2:Isn't clear and therefore we feel left out of social situations because and then they're upset with us on the other end because you didn't come, they invited you in quotations and you didn't want to go or whatever. But to you it's like they're just bragging about them going out with a bunch of friends and you're not invited and that seems really rude or whatever. So I talk about this vampiric invitation because, like, vampires can't cross the threshold until you've invited them in. So I need that very specific. Hey, we're all going out to lunch. Would you like to come? There can't be any like implied meaning because otherwise I'm going to be hurt, you're going to be hurt.
Speaker 1:We're not going to have the opportunity to build our friendship because of a simple miscommunication, because if I were to ask, are you implying that I should come with you? The risk factor of me being very embarrassed by that and further affecting the relationship could be there.
Speaker 2:With my friends. My neurodivergent friends obviously just automatically do that. But my neurotypical friends I've had this conversation with them. I've literally said, hey, I am. I just don't understand when you imply something like, if you say, hey, I'm going someplace, I will never understand that was an invite. I can. But it's more work for me and it would be easier if you would just ask a question like state your meaning clearly.
Speaker 2:So in my friendships I've asked for that as an accommodation. I'll say, hey, if you're going to invite me someplace, just make it really clear that you want me to be there and I'd be more than happy to go or to say yay or nay based on my schedule. But I need you to make it very clear that you want me to be there, not that you're just having an event, yeah, and then it is such a simple thing that they and they've all done it and it's been integrated. And now they've been integrated into all of their conversations, not just with me, because that level of clarity is reassuring, is helpful. It's like affirming of the relationship and that you want them there. That's just a nice feeling.
Speaker 1:So, instead of hey, we're having birthday party for Johnny. You, as the neurodivergent may think great, you're having a birthday party for Johnny. But instead, what would be better is we're having a birthday party for Johnny, would you like to help us plan it? Or would you like to join us on Saturday and so?
Speaker 2:that's one of the things you can do If you know that you struggle in a certain area, the neurotypicals who can't communicate correctly ask for them, change it, explain why you need that change and if they like you, they're going to do it. It might take a little bit of practice, it might not be every time, but eventually it'll just settle in as a way of communicating, as an improved way of communicating for everyone, not just neurodivergent people.
Speaker 1:But again, neurodivergent people feel more hurt as a result of that miscommunication, so it does bid us more to fix it, which is why we've had more of the burden of fixing it, and there's some history there too, because a lot of us, as neurodivergent children, we have a harder time making friends, and so just because someone was having a birthday party did not absolutely mean that we were invited, so may not automatically assume that someone wants us to come to their event.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, but yeah. So communication is super important. It is not our fault. It is both people's responsibility in this little communication thing to ensure that the communication is happening in a way that works for both people. It is not only on you is actual real life consequences or relationships where there's actual real life consequences. There are things that you can ask for in terms of communication that will improve your life Well thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 1:Join us next week when we talk about the ADHD tax.
Speaker 2:Okay, bye, bye-bye.
