We Deserve to Be Seen: Advocacy for Invisible Disabilities at Work

Invisible disabilities like ADHD impact work life in profound ways.
In this episode, Melissa and Brianna discuss invisible disabilities in the workplace with Dr. Jessica Hickstead, who shares insights on breaking workplace barriers, fostering belonging, and using her WIDE survey to create truly inclusive and supportive work environments. The episode also examines the unique challenges of ADHD and work, highlighting the importance of accommodations and understanding.

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✨ Guest Information
This episode features Dr. Jessica Hickstead, a speaker, researcher, and advocate specializing in Industrial Organizational Psychology and Information Systems. Her work promotes neurodiversity and workplace accessibility, informed by her lived experience with ADHD and Autism.

🌐 Learn more about Dr. Jessica Hickstead here: https://neurodivergentoutloud.com/
📸 Follow her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-hicksted

🔗 Links to Things Mentioned in This Episode

• Learn more about the WIDE Survey: Text WIDE to 33777 to join as a founding organization or learn more.

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Melissa's Contact:
Email: melissa@likemindcoaching.com
www.likemindcoaching.com

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Email: info@understandingadhd.ca
www.understandingADHD.ca

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Chapters

• 1:02 Introducing Dr. Jessica Hickstead
• 1:57 The WIDE Survey: Purpose and Development
• 5:16 Impact of the WIDE Survey on Organizations
• 11:11 Future Vision for Inclusive Workplaces
• 21:15 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Transcript

[00:00:00] Brianna: Welcome to Hypercast.

[00:00:01] Melissa: Welcome to Hypercast Hey, Brianna, how are you? 

[00:00:03] Brianna: I'm having a high energy day today. How are 

[00:00:06] Brianna: you doing?

[00:00:06] Melissa: I'm doing pretty

[00:00:08] Brianna: I'm a little giggly. 

[00:00:09] Melissa: honestly, we're both a little giggly. 

[00:00:10] Melissa: You've worked before, Melissa? 

[00:00:12] Melissa: I've had many, jobs in my years. 

[00:00:14] Brianna: my original master's thesis was on communication in the workplace and how much it sucked for neurodivergent people. very specific reasons of not being seen, not being heard, not being understood, and, not having that sense of belonging. Has that happened to you? 

[00:00:27] Melissa AI: every job that I've ever been at. Most jobs 

[00:00:30] Melissa AI: required

[00:00:31] Melissa AI: me to mask so hard to try to fit into the workplace, to fit into the ideal of what my boss is looking for. to just be the thing that I'm supposed to be. And then I'm just so exhausted at the end of the day.

[00:00:44] Melissa AI: I feel like I burned out quickly. I I'm just physically and mentally exhausted. 

[00:00:48] Melissa: Yeah, it sucks because we could be incredibly productive for the company, and yet we are not being given the tools that we need to be productive. And often they don't even see us. They're sweeping us under the rug because, our disabilities are invisible. To talk about that, we have a wonderful guest here today who specializes in this.

[00:01:09] Brianna: Dr. Jessica Hickstead, PhD, an industrial organizational psychologist with a dedicated focus on fostering inclusivity in the workplace, especially for individuals with invisible disabilities.

[00:01:19] Brianna: we are excited to welcome Dr. Hickstead, to talk about her wide insight, the Workplace Invisible Disability Experience, insight. It's a survey. It's a tool that she's been developing to help organizations understand how their culture and climate impact disclosure and productivity for those with invisible disabilities.

[00:01:37] Melissa: Welcome Dr. Hickstead. This is exciting for us because we met you recently at a Q and A session that we did for the ADHD VCon. And as soon as we got off from the Q and A session, Brianna contacted me and was like, Oh my God, we need to get her on the podcast. So I'm really excited that you said yes. And you are willing to just spend some of your time with us today.

[00:01:58] Melissa: Thank you so much.

[00:01:59] Melissa: So you call it, you call it the wide survey. 

[00:02:01] Melissa: Can you explain what it is?

[00:02:02] Jessica: So the white insights was born out of, being in a job that was horrible. it was when I got diagnosed and I like first time really disclosing, It was a very busy, noisy place I worked in. So I was having issues.

[00:02:16] Jessica: And so I was asking to wear different headsets and had to get permission for that going through the disclosing Just the stigma and cause I've got PTSD too. that was the one thing that would really stand out is when I told him the PTSD too, they seriously looked at me, said, do we need to get security in here?

[00:02:33] Brianna: What?

[00:02:34] Jessica: I'm sitting here nice and calm. the security guy came in who knew me and we talked a lot and he knew I was going through a rough time.

[00:02:43] Jessica: And, He's I guess you need to call someone else. Cause I have PTSD too I just had to sit there and not laugh at that one.

[00:02:49] Melissa: was this an actual HR department?

[00:02:50] Jessica: I was in with my union and my boss.

[00:02:54] Melissa: It sounds very, uneducated, ill informed.

[00:02:58] Brianna: On what planet is PTSD dangerous? Are they referring to the very few like Criminal Minds episodes where the like husband with comes back from war and accidentally rolls over and kills his wife?

[00:03:09] Brianna: Yeah. having the maltreatment and seeing that stigma and stereotype, people automatically assuming uncapable You've been doing the job for a year and suddenly you disclose something and they're like, Oh, you can't do the job you've been doing already. 

[00:03:23] Jessica: I was still newer, but I was finding mistakes other people were doing. Cause I'm very good at pattern recognition and seeing things missing or out of place. I think that's what pissed off some people. 

[00:03:34] Brianna: I was saving the company like millions of dollars by what I was finding, but yes, I was bad. 

[00:03:40] Melissa: I'm sitting here grinding 

[00:03:41] Melissa: my 

[00:03:41] Melissa: jaw because that is just miserable. Because essentially you were having a hard time at work because people did not like to be told they were doing something wrong. And you were finding their, issues and they did not want to be confronted with the fact that they were not doing what they were supposed to be doing, and they were not doing their jobs.

[00:03:59] Brianna: And I was happy to fix it and do the job.Wasn't doing it on purpose. I'm like, Hey, I found another thing out of place. 

[00:04:05] Melissa: all of these experiences, became an inspiration for creating The Wide?

[00:04:10] Jessica: yes, this became the inspiration because if this happens to me, I know what's happening to other people that I'm not.

[00:04:17] Jessica: Yes, I'm unique, but I'm not that unique.

[00:04:18] Brianna: I think you just described most neurodivergent people's experience in the workplace. And when I was doing my research, I found the same thing. I tested how many times there was miscommunication, who was impacted by that miscommunication, and then emotionally, like, how emotionally impacted they were.

[00:04:34] Brianna: And every single one was neurodivergent. More miscommunications with neurodivergents. It impacted their workplace more, and it impacted them emotionally more. 

[00:04:41] Jessica: If this is known, then why are we letting the most brilliant people, the ones who can see the problems, the ones who can fix it, the ones who are saving companies millions of dollars, why are we letting them suffer? And undervaluing them, and also fearing them? just because we're direct and seek justice,

[00:04:59] Brianna: Yeah, it's because we make them a little bit uncomfortable.

[00:05:02] Jessica: first thing I tell people now is look, if I say something to offend you, it's not meant to offend you. I'm just very direct. 

[00:05:09] Melissa: Don't ask me a question you don't want the answer to,That's, actually really good because one of the best things is to be open and communicate about, How you communicate, how you best communicate, and if people know, the knowledge helps them not be offended.

[00:05:23] Brianna: Yeah, and honesty is a

[00:05:24] Brianna: virtue. And yet we're punished 

[00:05:26] Jessica: for it? 

[00:05:27] Jessica: So what is it, what is your intention with the WIDE ? what is it now and what do you want it to become?

[00:05:32] Jessica: So what it is now, it is under development and we're into the testing phase, going to do a testing load on it. the application's all built. It looks awesome. And I'm super excited. there's going to be a whole training portion to it too,

[00:05:46] Jessica: To bring on other consultants, coaches not just anybody is going to be able to be like, Oh, here I can grab this tool. I'm going to use it. No there's going to be an education thing to go through it. So they, really understand its functionality and what its purpose Is.

[00:05:59] Jessica: There is academic research behind it. It's not just another one of these. Oh, how do you fill in the workplace It is really to give insight. And that's why we've called it the wide insight. And the three subscales of advocacy, ableism and acceptance. Those were the three thatmost.

[00:06:15] Jessica: showed impact on disclosure. 

[00:06:18] Melissa: did you build the wide insight survey for a specific industry? I know, 

[00:06:23] Jessica: I. 

[00:06:24] Melissa: like the tech industry for a long time.

[00:06:26] Jessica: Yeah, no, I'm, I kept it for any organization. my research, I did general population of the U S so that's the only place it's been tested 

[00:06:34] Brianna: it's not telling a company that are bad or they're good. it's to give where the strengths and weaknesses lie and then to be able to take those and to customize training.

[00:06:45] Brianna: To improve or build upon where their strengths are. And just, to make that educational, that awareness and to hopefully close those gaps up in disclosure, close those gaps up in communication, close those gaps up in removing that invisible veil, Even in hiring processes, I just went to a women in leadership conference and they were talking about like inclusivity, including neurodivergence, but like women, BIPOC people, et cetera. But they were saying like, eye contact is one of the main things that hiring managers look for. And that's not an accurate reflection of the work that can be done because the neurotypicals link it with confidence and education and ability to do the job.

[00:07:26] Brianna: Whereas we know that eye contact is. None of those things. It is a cultural marker that we don't have. 

[00:07:32] Brianna: in your research in creating the WIDE What have you found when it comes to companies? where did the deficiencies lie?

[00:07:37] Jessica: So of course the more ableism there is, the less likely someone's going to disclose, And I think the one really interesting one, because I did ask for people to identify if they had an invisible disability or not whether they were diagnosed or just identified as, because diagnosis is privilege.

[00:07:53] Brianna: brief side note. There are actually like self diagnosis scales that have been validated So we're moving towards like self diagnosis 

[00:08:01] Brianna: we're getting closer and closer to like making that accessible rather than having to pay like thousands of dollars to get an official diagnosis. we're working towards it, which is exciting.

[00:08:09] Jessica: Yeah, which is good, now it's just to get the workplace to 

[00:08:12] Jessica: accept that too 

[00:08:13] Jessica: What deficiencies do you find that workplaces have?

[00:08:15] Jessica: there's a Disparity between those that don't have a diagnosis or identify and those that do, of course, that, and any of us that claim to have a visible disability are like, yeah, we would know this, but they view ableism as less in the workplace. If they don't diagnose identify than those that do, they see more ableism.

[00:08:34] Melissa: even if people are diagnosed, it doesn't always mean that they want to disclose. 

[00:08:39] Jessica: Yep. And I asked that too. it was really interesting. There was people that were diagnosed and did not identify, which I figured there would be some, but that was really interestingto actually see it in numbers. 

[00:08:49] Brianna: Okay, tell me about those numbers, because I've come across this too, where they don't want to accept that it's a part of them, or even, accepting that it's a part of them, but they're like, oh, that's the part I don't like, oh, I don't like this part of me, I don't like my stomach, or I don't like my thighs I don't like my ADHD, and I was like, your ADHD is you.

[00:09:05] Brianna: Like it is the lens through which you view the world. The same as like a woman Like it is the lens through which you view the world. You can't remove it. And then there is that like distance between like I'm diagnosed and I have this thing but they haven't truly accepted it yet because the world is so against them because of all that internalized stigma and shame.

[00:09:24] Brianna: That's really interesting.

[00:09:26] Jessica: Yeah. And it was the, individuals that were diagnosed and didn't identify, they answered the questions a lot more like a person who didn't have a diagnosis any diagnosis or

[00:09:36] Jessica: identity. Yeah. so they, Yeah, they conformed to that. And it's I was like, that's. Weird. that whole masking, lying to yourself

[00:09:46] Jessica: thing, um higher rates of burnout or were they succeeding better in

[00:09:50] Jessica: yeah,There's still so much relational data to work on. 

[00:09:53] Melissa: What is your hope for the wide? What kind of impact are you hoping that it has on Companies.

[00:09:58] Jessica: I'm hoping that it really opens their eyes to a, to really see the real percentage of people with invisible disabilities and get rid of this. Oh,it's a very small percent of our workplace. I can't know. the wide shows it's 73

[00:10:11] Jessica: percent 

[00:10:12] Jessica: of employees.

[00:10:13] Melissa: it's about what I would think

[00:10:14] Jessica: Yep. Yeah. 

[00:10:15] Brianna: Because, like, all of the numbers are, like, there's only 5 percent of the population with ADHD and in adulthood it goes away. And I'm, like, what data are you looking at? Because in adulthood it gets worse, first of all. And then, obviously, in certain sectors of business, there's going to be a way higher percentage of us.

[00:10:32] Brianna: Yep. Yeah, I do hope to get to see that as we start getting to organizations then to be able to look at each type of organization and see how the 

[00:10:41] Brianna: Yeah, 

[00:10:42] Jessica: or how there is similar I 

[00:10:44] Brianna: theory would be like anything with inauthenticity, like anything in sales where you have to lie to people in order to get them to do what you want, you're gonna find a lower number of us.

[00:10:55] Jessica: Yeah, I know it's going to be interesting too, since it is on all invisible disability, And we do break it out into three types,

[00:11:02] Jessica: sensory, physical, and then neurodivergence.

[00:11:05] Jessica: So 

[00:11:06] Brianna: handle like deaf community, like anyone who's blind but not visibly

[00:11:09] Jessica: oh yeah, the blind blind, low vision or deaf heart of hearing, other physical thing, your

[00:11:18] Jessica: chronic pain, Eilish Danlows, diabetes I have a whole list of them Oh, the sensory is you're blind and you're deaf

[00:11:24] Jessica: If you are able to, take the numbers from the WIDE and present them to a company, what kind of benefit do you see for employees?

[00:11:32] Jessica: So I see that because it's gonna give them a relational skill of where they are in those three subskills, the advocacy, acceptance, and ableism. It's going to give them numbers, 

[00:11:43] Brianna: Companies love numbers. 

[00:11:45] Jessica: companies want numbers. And the whole point of it is it's not a one time thing. It's like we started, we do it now.

[00:11:51] Jessica: And then in six months or a year, we repeat it. 

[00:11:54] Jessica: it's going to give them their true percentage of. People that are invisibly disabled and their true percentage of those who are disclosing and those who are not, 

[00:12:03] Jessica: It, literally gives a true insight of what's going on. Going on.

[00:12:07] Brianna: what is the like financial benefit Is there some kind of incentive I know, That if you actually take care of your employees, they're going to take care of you. If you 

[00:12:15] Brianna: give us the accommodations we need, we're actually going to be more productive for 

[00:12:18] Brianna: you.

[00:12:18] Melissa: But 

[00:12:18] Melissa: retention's important too. Retention's a 

[00:12:20] Melissa: very important

[00:12:21] Melissa: factor when it comes to the bottom line for companies

[00:12:24] Jessica: Yeah, and this does go on retention because if someone's not happy, healthy, thriving, feel like they're included, feel like they have purpose, they're gonna leave. they're gonna try to find something better. And turnover, costs, on average, 50, 000.

[00:12:40] Melissa: employee.

[00:12:41] Jessica: Per employee.

[00:12:42] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:12:44] Brianna: actually give a s%$! About people with disabilities and neurodivergence included, and help them help you!

[00:12:51] Jessica: I, if you look at my work history This is my first company where I'm currently working. I am almost at four years. And that's because. They listen, they take care of me. I've helped start their disability ERG. They, are super supportive. I'll give a shout out to them. It's CACI International and 

[00:13:09] Brianna: It's, it is the first place that, you I can openly talk about my ADHD, my autism, And it's not Oh, I'm sorry. It's Oh, cool. How can I help you? The question to ask is, oh cool, how can I help you, not security?

[00:13:23] Melissa: Or, my other favorite, you don't look autistic.

[00:13:26] Melissa: God.

[00:13:26] Brianna: Great, thank you 

[00:13:28] Melissa: You say that like it's a bad thing to look autistic.

[00:13:30] Jessica: I'm like, what is it supposed to look like?

[00:13:32] Melissa AI: You're supposed to be drooling on yourself. That's what they anticipate it looking

[00:13:35] Melissa AI: looking like. 

[00:13:37] Brianna: thing that they've seen in the media is little boys like hitting themselves in the head, Yeah. a very low percentage of autistic individuals. Oh there they're valid and they need as well, but you're not going to find them in 

[00:13:50] Brianna: it's a spectrum y'all.

[00:13:51] Jessica: Yeah, 

[00:13:51] Jessica: 

[00:13:51] Melissa: what kind of benefits do you foresee both companies, employees having as companies begin to accommodate their employees?

[00:13:58] Jessica: totally see way better workplace wellbeing, the stigma and stereotypes disappearing, just a place that you can go and it just feels nice to go to work. Whether you're working from your computer at home or going into an office somewhere that you feel you belong, that you feel you have purpose. your ideas are welcome. You're stumbling of words are welcome, whatever it is. It's no one laughs at you or or writes you up because you forgot something it's more Hey, do you need some help on that? That was due yesterday. Those gentle 

[00:14:32] Brianna: Yeah. 

[00:14:33] Brianna: how can we work.

[00:14:33] Brianna: with you rather than against you? Yeah. Mm hmm. 

[00:14:36] Melissa: think, some of the things that both people on the ADHD and autism spectrums, they may display like being late to things or like you said, stumbling over your words that makes people question your intelligence you being late makes people wonder if you care 

[00:14:51] Melissa: at least me personally, I have had jobs that I feel like my hard work isn't seen, the, deficiencies are seen. And 

[00:14:57] Melissa: they somehow speak so much louder.

[00:14:59] Melissa: do you thinkeducation and awareness is going to be what's really going to help. Change the minds of companies.

[00:15:04] Jessica: I think it's gonna be a big thing and then it's, especially getting in those executive suite levels is getting them those numbers because once they have those numbers put in front of their face saying, Hey. No, 70 plus percent of your employees have an invisible disability, and only 30 percent are disclosing to anyone. That's a lot of people masking, hiding. Not feeling comfortable enough to be themselves, which if you're doing that, you're using up an executive function to mask, which means you're not being as productive as you can be, 

[00:15:35] Brianna: exactly. 

[00:15:35] Brianna: the part that's going to get companies involved. Like the education and the understanding and the acceptance and the removal of stigma and shame is what we want, but what's going to like foster change is they're going to see the numbers improving.

[00:15:49] Brianna: Their bottom line is going to improve as a result of this.

[00:15:52] Brianna: even think just companies Taking this and giving it to their employees. Employees are going to be, they're actually want to know this stuff. Like they answers. like even, And it's

[00:16:01] Brianna: like, is a step right direction. Like even that will make someone feel safer to disclose.

[00:16:06] Melissa: do you have, any fear that because, of stigma, people may not be as honest on the survey as you would like them to be?

[00:16:14] Jessica: Oh, that's written into the

[00:16:15] Jessica: survey. that's good to know.

[00:16:16] Jessica: There are some other questions for the disclosure.

[00:16:18] Jessica: And if you say you have an invisible disability, there's a few more questions to answer, 

[00:16:22] Jessica: From your work on this survey, you gotten an idea of what an ideal workplace looks like?

[00:16:28] Jessica: Definitely one that doesn't think disability is a dirty word.

[00:16:32] Brianna: I yeah. I don't know why disability is treated like it's such a dirty word, or like it 

[00:16:37] Brianna: should be like, pitiable, or shameful, or hidden. It is what it is. And we're also not superheroes or so strong for just showing up to work either end of that spectrum.

[00:16:49] Brianna: Oh, poor you, that's so sad. Or oh my god, you're so inspiring. Both of those are bad. We're just people. 

[00:16:55] Brianna: And we need some 

[00:16:56] Brianna: help sometimes, 

[00:16:57] Jessica: I think This bringing those numbers into the faces of executives, like they're not going to be able to deny it anymore, number one. And it's going to be like, oh, okay, we really do need to do something and then they're being belief there. So the next time maybe when someone comes up to him and be like, hey I'm struggling.

[00:17:14] Jessica: Really sensory overload. It's just a bad ADHD day. Something. I go outside for a 30 minute walk?

[00:17:20] Brianna: Yeah.

[00:17:21] Jessica: okay not, Oh, we need to go take you and get this written in accommodation and go get a doctor's

[00:17:27] Jessica: And 

[00:17:27] Brianna: inaccessible for us to get the accommodations, right? We don't need to fill out a million forms to go take a 30 minute walk. 

[00:17:33] Jessica: yeah, 

[00:17:33] Brianna: was getting this vision of you walk into, a workspace instead of these beige cubicles. everyone's got their own workspace that is just suited for them. Kit it out for them that works for how they work You mean 

[00:17:45] Brianna: the environment is adapted?

[00:17:48] Melissa: the environment is adaptive, 

[00:17:49] Melissa: Don't treat us like we're children. We know what we need and we need you to give us what we need so we can for everyone, ourselves, the company, etc.

[00:17:59] Jessica: It's even, being comfortable saying at the meeting, Hey, if anyone needs a standup in the back of the room and is not comfortable sitting, 

[00:18:06] Brianna: An audio and a text, transcription transcription for after the meeting. So people can, go back they can actually review it later. this is universal accommodation though. Yeah.

[00:18:16] Brianna: everyone. There are just certain people who need it and certain people who want it. Like this, it should just be the standard, the base level, 

[00:18:23] Jessica: Yeah, and we have all these great tools, like it's not hard, 

[00:18:27] Brianna: there's so many people who will consider themselves normal that may not even maybe they fall on the spectrum. Maybe they don't, but maybe some of these things will actually help them too. And they just don't even know yet. Subtitles, for example. Everyone my generation is using subtitles now, even if they don't have Auditory Processing Disorder. One of the guys might just have a really strong Scottish accent, if you're watching The Outlander, and you can't understand what's going on, so subtitles are helpful for Everyone! 

[00:18:50] Melissa: the one question I have is like to make it personal. Like I have experiences in the workplace where I have faced discrimination and felt bad. So is there any examples that you can think of where that has happened that maybe this tool wide the workplace invisible disability experience?

[00:19:08] Brianna: insight would benefit?

[00:19:10] Jessica: there, there are questions on it. I have seen discrimination in my workplace. I have experienced it.

[00:19:15] Jessica: It does ask though, so

[00:19:16] Brianna: I have a friend 

[00:19:17] Brianna: her experience in the workplace was she had this great boss who was giving her like this project, and some data analytics. And the data analytics was falling behind a little bit. Cause it was very boring for her. And she liked the creativity of the other pieces.

[00:19:29] Brianna: The next boss that came in said, Oh, you're behind your numbers are behind in this data analytics. I'm taking away all of your variety, every other project you have, and you only get to do this every day until you catch up to the rest of your team. What happened? 

[00:19:43] Jessica: ouch, 

[00:19:44] Brianna: She was not able to do this because it was the only thing.

[00:19:46] Brianna: She wasn't providing the variety, the interest. She hated work. She nearly quit. that is just an example of poor leadership. So if you had that kind of data from the wide, and you could see that hey, we actually need variety to function, and yeah, the numbers are gonna be a little bit behind, but she's working on it.

[00:20:03] Brianna: Like that kind of thing.

[00:20:04] Jessica: that'll be more in the, like the consulting end of it is like once all the data is gathered is then to really delve down if you see it, an area, a team area, that's like way under. Thengo in and then talk to that team and get like really one on one what is going on?

[00:20:24] Jessica: What's your work like are you engaged and try to get that personal experience. So that's, where that's going to be able to open the 

[00:20:31] Brianna: Yeah. 

[00:20:31] Jessica: and be able to help the individual. 

[00:20:33] Jessica: 

[00:20:33] Brianna: even in the past, like 10, 20 years or so, like ADHD has gone from. Like a dirty word, like never discussed to now I feel comfortable openly disclosing it. And I just share that information freely. this wide insight would provide that safe space in probably the most toxic, like it still remains the most toxic environment for invisible disabilities.

[00:20:57] Brianna: So 

[00:20:58] Jessica: yeah, 

[00:20:58] Brianna: bring the Oh yeah, my therapist was telling me you're like, Oh yeah, I have ADHD, like to the workplace and it not be met with stigma and discrimination, 

[00:21:07] Jessica: Yeah, that, that opens that, conversation and that, that belongingness, 

[00:21:12] Jessica: I really believe like once, the barriers are down and that we're just believed, productivity is going to

[00:21:19] Brianna: they're going to be like, Oh, holy crud.

[00:21:21] Jessica: How's all this work 

[00:21:22] Brianna: Yeah. I love that word you used, belongingness. 

[00:21:26] Jessica: When you feel like you belong, when there's space to belong and you're believed 

[00:21:31] Brianna: Believed, And not doubted. the doubt

[00:21:33] Jessica: Mm hmm.

[00:21:34] Jessica: Mm 

[00:21:35] Brianna: and the internalized shame. 

[00:21:36] Jessica: as we're working towards a closing here, I'm just wondering Hickstead, what do you think? Are the most important things for us to take away from this conversation and what message do you want to leave our listeners with?

[00:21:46] Jessica: yes, it's scary. And you see all this fear mongering against disclosure of, Oh, you're just going to get fired. But it's 73%. That is general population in the U S 73%. That's a big number. We're not a small voice.

[00:22:00] Jessica: We're, not the minority. Yeah. They just, I'm going to say, they overarching

[00:22:05] Brianna: Don't want to see our sparkle sparkle, start small, start with someone at work that you can really trust and be like, Hey I go through this. I could really use some help in these areas. Speak up for yourself start talking more and you're going to start.

[00:22:18] Jessica: Finding that belonging and other people are going to, Oh, I experienced that

[00:22:22] Jessica: too. Or, Oh, I am diagnosed Too. 

[00:22:25] Jessica: know? 

[00:22:26] Brianna: first episodes was on community and that finding your community, finding that aspect where you can like, feel like you belong. Like the zebra metaphor, like I'm a zebra, not a weird horse, that type of thing where you get that validation where you get that, Oh yeah, that happens to me too.

[00:22:42] Brianna: I tried this. I'm like, Oh, I hadn't thought of that. And like just that community collaborative aspect and like fitting in and belonging and all of that is really important.

[00:22:51] Melissa: we've got to take that fear out of it. Just got to start standing up for ourselves because invisible disabilities are huge. And I think that's a lot of the scary part for a lot of people that, don't have one is at any time you can join the ranks, that's scary. I'm having a moment that hit me a little bit there.

[00:23:12] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:23:15] Brianna: have experienced that now even more present in the workplace because people who were previously in quotations normal have now experienced the other side of things and seen how bad is.

[00:23:26] Jessica: It's sad that it has to go that way, Disability is not dirty. It's just a part of you. And whether you were diagnosed at four or diagnosed at 40, it's always been a part of you and it doesn't change who you are. You've still been an awesome person in whatever you do.

[00:23:42] Jessica: So just keep doing you.

[00:23:45] Melissa: exactly. Exactly. Dr. Hickstead, where can we find you? If anyone wants to get in touch with you orIf anyone would actually want to be part of your wide survey how can they get in touch with you?

[00:24:00] Jessica: LinkedIn. You can also text wide W I D E to three, three, seven, seven, seven.And then that will put you on the email list to get some more information about the wide.

[00:24:13] Jessica: If you want to find me on LinkedIn or email me and get added to this testing group, it's going to start soon 

[00:24:18] Jessica: Oh yeah. And then you can find me with ndoutloud too ndoutloud. com. 

[00:24:23] Melissa: Fantastic.

[00:24:24] Melissa: And if you need any further assistance or ADHD coaching, I'm an ADHD coach and you can find me at likemindcoaching. com. Brianna.

[00:24:34] Brianna: Hi, I'm also an ADHD coach and an intern therapist. And you can find me at understandingadhd. ca.

[00:24:41] Melissa: Thank you so much, Dr. Eckstead for joining us. 

[00:24:43] Brianna: And audience, until next time. Bye.