The Truth About ADHD, Addiction & Dopamine

Struggling with addiction—or supporting someone who is? ADHD and addiction are deeply connected, from dopamine system differences to impulsivity and risk-taking. In this episode, we break it all down with addiction expert Mark Gray, sharing insights on prevention, recovery, and the role of ADHD in substance use.

🔥 Topics Covered:
✔️ Why ADHDers are at higher risk for addiction
✔️ The dopamine connection: why we seek substances
✔️ Signs that addiction may be a problem
✔️ Harm reduction vs. abstinence—what really helps?
✔️ Does ADHD medication help or hurt addiction recovery?

🔹 Co-Hosts:
💡 Melissa Llewellyn Snider – ADHD Coach | Executive Producer of Hypercast
🌐 Learn more: https://www.LikemindCoaching.com
💡 Brianna Morton – ADHD Coach | Therapist Intern
🌐 Learn more: https://www.UnderstandingADHD.ca

🔹 Special Guest: Mark Gray
Founder of Black & Gray Addiction Support, Mark is an addiction specialist with ADHD and lived experience in recovery. Learn more at: https://www.blackandgrayaddictionsupport.com.

📌 Substance Use Support & Resources (U.S. & Canada)

United States
SAMHSA National Helpline – 1-800-662-HELP (4357)
📌 Website: https://www.samhsa.gov/
Confidential, free 24/7 support, treatment referrals, and information.

988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline – Dial 988
📌 Website: https://988lifeline.org/
For crisis intervention, including substance use crises.

Partnership to End Addiction – Text CONNECT to 55753
📌 Website: https://drugfree.org/
Support for individuals & families navigating addiction recovery.

Shatterproof Treatment Atlas
📌 Website: https://www.treatmentatlas.org/
Find evidence-based treatment centers in the U.S.

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA)
📌 Website: https://www.aa.org/
12-step support groups for alcohol addiction.

Narcotics Anonymous (NA)
📌 Website: https://www.na.org/
Peer support groups for those recovering from drug addiction.

Canada
Talk Suicide Canada – 1-833-456-4566
📌 Website: https://talksuicide.ca/
24/7 crisis line for emotional distress, including substance use issues.

Canada’s Drug & Alcohol Helpline – 1-800-565-8603
📌 Website: https://www.drugandalcoholhelpline.ca/
Free, confidential support and treatment referrals.

Wellness Together Canada
📌 Website: https://www.wellnesstogether.ca/
Virtual mental health & addiction support (free for all Canadians).

Alcoholics Anonymous Canada
📌 Website: https://www.aa.org/
Find local AA meetings across Canada.

Narcotics Anonymous Canada
📌 Website: https://www.na.org/
Find NA meetings and peer support for drug recovery.

💬 Got questions or personal insights? Drop a comment below—we’d love to hear from you!

👀 Watch Next:
▶️ "Is It ADHD or Something Else? The Truth About Assessments" https://youtu.be/GsnzW5W2Elw

🔔 Subscribe for more ADHD insights & strategies! [Insert Subscribe Link]

#ADHD #AddictionRecovery #Neurodivergent #MentalHealth

Melissa's Contact:
Email: melissa@likemindcoaching.com
www.likemindcoaching.com

Brianna's Contact:
Email: info@understandingadhd.ca
www.understandingADHD.ca

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Transcript

[00:00:00] brianna: There is parts of ADHD that can lead to addiction. The impulsivity, the hyperactivity, the risk taking, all of that leads to feeling empty or feeling broken, the discrimination from society, 

[00:00:12] brianna-: everyone is touched by addiction, and the connection between ADHD and addiction is what we're here to discuss today, because

[00:00:20] brianna-: Someone out there needs this information.

[00:00:23] Melissa : And whether it's yourself that needs to hear this information, or it's something you can hear and maybe better understand those people that are struggling with addiction in, their lives. 

[00:00:33] brianna-: ADHD individuals are two to three times more likely to develop substance use disorders. Like it makes sense, right? We have stimulus seeking brains, dopamine seeking brains.

[00:00:41] brianna-: We have an intolerance for boredom. We are prone to high risk behaviors. there's connections to food addiction, sex addiction, gaming addiction. 

[00:00:48] brianna-: today we'll mostly be discussing substance abuse addiction. That's not to diminish the other addictions there are out there, but substance abuse addiction is particularly damaging to people's lives. 

[00:00:58] brianna-morton--she-her-_3_12-13-2024_124719: addiction isn't a problem. It's a solution to a problem. And as we get into our conversation with Mark Gray, we discussed that in more detail, 

[00:01:06] melissa_: If you are supporting someone who has an addiction problem, or you're the person who has an addiction problem, be compassionate towards yourself and be compassionate to those that are struggling. 

[00:01:15] Brianna: Welcome to hypercast.

[00:01:17] Melissa: welcome to hypercast.Hi, I'm Melissa. I am an ADHD coach and educator, 

[00:01:22] Brianna: hi, I'm Brianna and ADHD coach and intern therapist

[00:01:25] Melissa: today we're talking about ADHD and addiction. We actually have the opportunity to sit down with an addiction expert today, and we'll be talking about prevention. treatment and then support and recovery.

[00:01:36] Brianna: with us today is Mark Gray, one of the founders of black and gray addiction support center. 

[00:01:41] Brianna: he is someone who not only is an addiction specialist, but has experienced addiction himself, and has ADHD, 

[00:01:47] Melissa: thank you so much, Mark, for being with us 

[00:01:49] Mark: Thanks so much for having me.

[00:01:50] Melissa: Mark, did you want to tell us a little bit about what you do and what has brought you to what you're doing now?

[00:01:55] Mark: I was a chef for many years. that really lent well to having ADHD,It was a perfect career for that. And,I also had substance abuse problems, for about 14 years. Progressively got worse over that 14 years and went to treatment when I was 30 years old. and I realized that going back to the restaurant industry was probably not going to be good for me.

[00:02:18] Mark: So, I also had an experience in treatment with, a counselor that was also in recovery themselves. And I never had that, for the 10 years I was kind of looking for support, which really made me think. There needs to be more individuals in recovery on the other side, helping out.

[00:02:35] Melissa: Right. And that really made me change my path went to school for counseling. As soon as I got out, opened my own, business black and gray addiction support. And that's been running for four years now. Well, you've lived this you've gone through it. How does someone Recognize that they may be having a problem and that they actually may need help 

[00:02:55] Mark: it's difficult because denial is so big, right? I can certainly attest to that. I just didn't want to believe it. I, well, maybe it's, maybe it's this and maybe, I just can't drink this kind of booze or, you know, I can't do this thing or I got to move, maybe it's the area, there's so many almost like little tests that I had to go through before I hit. the wall of truth, which was, there is something seriously wrong. You cannot get away from it. You've tried everything. It does not work. once I hit that, it was like, okay, I can let go of, this need to use substances or this denial of, um I'm okay. Right. Because I'm not, and that's okay.

[00:03:36] Mark: It's okay to not be okay. And, but, uh, it took me a really long time to get there. And I think everybody has their own kind of journey on that. To get to that end point

[00:03:45] Melissa: There's this old folk tale that there's this man who lives in a town and has all these struggles. He doesn't get along with his neighbors, etc. So he moves to the next town over and has the same problems again. And so he moves to the next time over and he has the same problems again. If the problems come up over and over again, you're eventually going to have to confront that. It may be you that's having a problem and that you need to look inside. 

[00:04:06] Mark: 100%, you take you with you everywhere you go. 

[00:04:09] Melissa: some may see that there may be a problem, or they may be confronted with a life situation That's a big. Red flag that screams something needs to change.

[00:04:18] Melissa: You need help. What are those kinds of signs? What should people look for when they know they need professional help? 

[00:04:24] Mark: Often people say, you need to hit consequences, um, so you kind of leave people to hit consequences, but unfortunately those consequences can be death. It can be kind of very severe, it is a kind of delicate balance, but ultimately people do need to hit These consequences to recognize Oh, what I'm doing isn't okay.

[00:04:46] Mark: continuously losing the job the family or the finances or whatever. again, those are kind of realities that those are hard truths that it's very difficult to deny. and A lot of the times that makes people adjust. It's like, Oh, okay. Well, you know, yeah, maybe something is going on here that I need to look at.

[00:05:05] Mark: Right. And it's not to say that everybody does that, but if I just enable you to live that lifestyle and help you out here and get you out of jail there and all those things. 

[00:05:14] Mark: Why would you go through the difficulty of changing when I can just keep doing this?

[00:05:17] Mark: Uh, I'll get, I'll get bailed out.

[00:05:19] Brianna: underemployment, incarceration, lack of education, all that kind of stuff happens for ADHD individuals as well, especially undiagnosed ADHD individuals. And then that leads to, self medication, which can turn to addiction, the same social measures as you were saying, Mark, if people keep bailing you out of jail, and are going to be there to support you, it's amazing to have a supportive community, but how are you going to tell the difference 

[00:05:44] Brianna: How do you, tell the difference? Is there a difference? do they go hand in hand? Does one lead to the other? 

[00:05:50] Mark: there's a lot of overlap, like, the obsessiveness of ADHD, when I liked something I was all in it was very black and white and that is a prevalent, behavior trait in addiction, 

[00:06:03] Mark: there's this obsession, with the substance or behavior of choice. you know, there's maybe poor impulse control, there's impatience, there's, a high sensitivity, you know, or, or I would say those with ADHD and myself, 100%, highly sensitive individual. overstimulation, overstimulation was a huge thing.

[00:06:24] Mark: Right. So that would drain me of energy. I had this desire to escape this desire to. Calm down for a moment, this desire to relax, to shut the mind off, those were all kind of ADHD traits that I then medicated with alcohol or substances. looking back now, like I didn't, I didn't really dive into this topic until probably two years ago.

[00:06:50] Mark: I thought, yeah, maybe I had it, but it wasn't much more than that, As I did, it was like, whoa, there's a ton of overlap, and a lot more makes sense.

[00:07:00] Melissa: with addiction, there's a system in the brain and dopamine is released when the substances are had. We lack dopamine, so being rewarded with that dopamine makes it extra awesome. And God forbid, we have a genetic predisposition to also having substance abuse problems.

[00:07:16] Melissa: all this is like a firestorm for possible disaster.

[00:07:19] Mark: Yep.

[00:07:20] Brianna: Exactly.

[00:07:21] Brianna: so both what Mark was saying and what you were saying, Melissa, is why we're talking about this. This is why we're talking about ADHD and addiction All of the points that Mark said like, the instant gratification, the, thoughts swirling in my mind, I just want to calm it down, or I'm understimulated and I want an upper, right?

[00:07:37] Brianna: addiction is a result of needing something. 

[00:07:42] Mark: I'm a very avid lover of Gabor Maté, his view is like, not, not why the addiction, but why the pain, right? that pain can be emotional pain. It can be boredom.

[00:07:53] Mark: It can be, low self esteem. It can be so many things, right? But you're right. It's like, there's this internal hole that I'm trying to fill with this external substance, right? and it works. in my own experience. Alcohol took away all my insecurities, lack of confidence, slow self esteem, all of that stuff. And it's like, boom, okay, I can drink this thing and I feel amazing. I can talk to women. I can do all of these things. how are you going to take that away from me? it's a tool and it 

[00:08:20] Mark: works really well. 

[00:08:21] Brianna: I love that Gaber Mattei thing, the filling the hole. It's solving a problem, right? The drugs and alcohol are solving a problem. It's not the most helpful way of solving the problem, right? Like if they're, speaking in the case of ADHD, if there had been a diagnosis, if there had been proper support through therapy, through medication, through community, and understanding, then perhaps there would We wouldn't have turned to that, but there is still that as Melissa, you were saying that genetic link, right?

[00:08:48] Brianna: So there is a 20 percent increased, risk of addiction. If you have ADHD, and it depends on the specific substance for the various numbers. Not only is there just like this genetic predisposition to having this kind of addictive personality or this higher risk of addiction. Also the way that society treats us, the way that our brains work, the way that we don't have enough dopamine. It is a very fast, easy solution to a problem. It fills the hole, it plugs the gap that society has left and that's why so many of us fall through the cracks.

[00:09:21] Melissa: I was thinking it quiets the pain. 

[00:09:23] Melissa: There's much pain and, the stigma that we consistently deal with

[00:09:28] Brianna: there's stigma in both. Right? if you have ADHD, there's stigma, but if you're addicted, there's huge amounts of stigma. 

[00:09:35] Mark: you're right. It's like drugs and alcohol are not the problem. They are the solution to the problem, right? And they're often the blame. Just put the drug and the alcohol down. Like, come on, what are you doing? 

[00:09:46] Mark: unless I have another solution that's more sustainable and healthy and et cetera. I'm not, I'm not putting that down. Right. 

[00:09:53] Brianna: willpower and motivation is something.

[00:09:56] Brianna: Oh, you have ADHD and you're addicted? Just stop being addicted! That'll work.

[00:10:01] Melissa: how, how can you prevent this from happening? And then if you can't prevent it and you end up there, how do you get into treatment? 

[00:10:08] Mark: yeah. So, I mean, the prevention is, a lot of it comes down to our support systems the accessibility and the understanding and compassion they provide. But if we don't have anybody to Be a sounding board or hold us accountable it can be very difficult because again, the denial and the story, there's, an author, Tommy Rosen, recovery 2.

[00:10:27] Mark: 0, he talks about our addiction story and it's the story about why we need the substance we do we create this, Massive kind of interwoven, beautiful story about why we need it, right? So if I have that story, if those are my beliefs, then I'm just going out into the world, confirming, looking for all the ways to confirm that story, you know what I mean?

[00:10:52] Mark: And I stay within that story. it is very difficult to dismantle that, if you will. when we talk about preventative things harm reduction is absolute. I think harm reduction is very necessary. It is not the answer to addiction, but it was never intended to be the answer to addiction. It is, 

[00:11:14] Melissa: Can someone explain what harm reduction is,

[00:11:16] Mark: it's simply reducing the risk. The harms of the substances we're using, right? Whether that's through clean needles, whether that's through supportive environments, seatbelts are harm reduction. Toothpaste is harm reduction, we're just reducing the harms. It's not the antidote. there's also so much stigma around that because all you're giving clean needles now more people are going to use but it's like I've never, never seen somebody drive by a safe injection site and be like, Oh, I want to go use a bit of opiates, you know, because they have this that doesn't happen.

[00:11:49] Mark: It's simply taking the person out of a back alley using puddle water to inject with. and giving them clean supplies where, you know, hopefully they won't die. They won't overdose with no one around. They won't be alone. And not to mention, it's those places that often provide the resources to long term abstinence, to recovery.

[00:12:12] Mark: so that's a big piece of prevention that I think is, is lacking in a lot of areas, when we have support, when we have people around us that are willing to be honest and compassionate with us, we face some consequences. And recognizing, you know, preoccupations, if I'm always thinking about it, if it's taking over, right? They say addiction is the progressive narrowing of the things that bring us pleasure, things start to drop away, friends and maybe hobbies everything becomes about the high, the drug, the, the behavior.

[00:12:42] Mark: Uh, it doesn't have to be a substance. recognizing those things and being able to be honest and say, okay, you know, I, I need help. 

[00:12:51] Brianna: Just to add to that point, With ADHD, as you said, it's not just substance use. So there's like food addiction, gaming addictions, sex addictions, any kind of, I even heard of people being addicted to work, anything that brings dopamine to our dysregulated systems. If we are not regulating another way, addiction is what we are going to do because our brains don't have that dopamine. So if there's a fast, easy source of dopamine, And as you said, with the narrowing, right? Like we need structure and routine in our lives. We rebel against structure and routine. If there is a structure and routine that facilitates not having to make decisions, not having to use executive functions, not having to use any of the dopamine and it's just there and it's easy, that's what we're going to turn to if we're not being supported in another way. 

[00:13:39] Mark: Yeah. A hundred percent. And really addiction can be to anything that is pleasurable or takes us out of our. current moment, right? It's a desire to escape the current moment. So whether that is food or sex or anything, and I believe firmly that we exist on a spectrum, right? And on one end you have the yoga obsessed health, obsessed individual. And on the other end, you have, the IV opiate user, um, you know, and, We're all kind of somewhere along those lines, and if you don't think so, put your phone down for 24 hours. And every time you think of it, that's how someone in addiction feels, 

[00:14:17] Mark: to deny the fact that we all have it in some way, shape or form is just to deny the truth, in my opinion.

[00:14:23] Brianna: That is such a great example. it also speaks to our, ADHDers, moderation ability. You mentioned right at the beginning, the black and white thinking, the all or nothing thinking. that's, another way that we tend towards addictive personalities or addiction, is It is that all or nothing, 

[00:14:40] Brianna: It is, it is that filling the hole, solving the problem, dulling the pain. And you can't, there is no moderation and that's how you end up in those addictive behaviors. 

[00:14:49] Brianna: There is pain. There is a solution. And now you're stuck. you can't claw your way out without support.

[00:14:56] Melissa: how do we help someone before it's too late? If they are having a problem. 

[00:14:59] Mark: interestingly enough, I got help through an intervention. 

[00:15:03] Brianna: I woke up one morning and went upstairs and business partners kind of put reality in my face. This is what you're doing. And this is how it's affecting everybody.

[00:15:13] Mark: And this is what's going to happen if you continue. that's how I got started. Got sober was going for kind of other people. at the same time, I also hate the show Intervention, because that forced, action doesn't usually warrant long term recovery.

[00:15:32] Mark: Because what ends up happening is, okay, I'll get sober for you, but I don't actually want to get sober. Or if you, you know, you're putting all this pressure on me and blah, blah, blah, blah, get out. Right? I really think the healing process for anybody in anything has to be voluntary. it has to be a willingness to cooperate, to lead, um, in the direction that you specifically want. It's not. Oh, you fit in this box, you do this program, and you're fine, That's not how these things work. you really, in my opinion, have to come from a voluntary place. 

[00:16:13] Melissa: for ADHD, we are not often motivated by external factors. We need internal motivation and internal inspiration. 

[00:16:20] Melissa: with the rejection sensitivity of people telling us that we're broken or wrong, we already know. if we're ADHD and addicted, we already know that there's something wrong, if someone is confronting you about something that you already know, and you already receiving all this negative societal feedback it's not going to change your mind, right? It's just going to reinforce This is the only solution. You don't get it. And now you've isolated yourself further from your community. 

[00:16:44] Mark: precisely. 

[00:16:45] Melissa: Okay, mark. people came to you and they communicated with you, people who cared about you, who love you. they showed you how you were hurting them, how you were hurting yourself. that communication helped you. But you said may not help everyone. So how do you get someone to 

[00:16:59] Melissa: To actually initiate to go down that path to start helping themselves. 

[00:17:03] Mark: A. H. Almas, I think his name is, only in the presence of compassion will people allow themselves to seek truth. And, you know, that I firmly believe. And the way it was delivered to me was very compassionate, right? There's an understanding You know, I see you and I see where you're at, but I also see the potential in you.

[00:17:23] Mark: And I also see that this isn't where you want to be right. And there's this kind of, it's not out of a blame, shame, change because you're not in line with what I want kind of thing. it came from a different angle. So, you know, it is that. There's that combination of consequence, right? So, okay, this is your behavior and your behavior has consequences and these are the consequences.

[00:17:47] Mark: And no, I'm not going to bail you out of them. you're going to hit those and hopefully that makes, people think, okay, yeah, I don't want to do this, but also having people around you that will support you, that, you know, Tell you truth that don't sugarcoat it downplay it. You know, this is what's happening in your life because in addiction we fabricate these stories.

[00:18:09] Mark: and finding those. Moments of clarity. And there is this window where it's like, I can't live like this anymore. This is not right. This is not who I want to be, et cetera. And so they reach out. The challenge with today's system is that there's nobody there when they reach out, or they have to wait. we got a bed for you in three months time, in 30 days, or, you have to be clean for seven days before you come. It's like, if I could be clean for seven days, I probably wouldn't be making this call, right? for me, I could never just get sober by going to 12 step meetings, I had to go away, and I had to really do a lot of hard work being plucked out of my life completely.

[00:18:56] Mark: the system needs to change, because we need to be able to, Take those individuals in that moment of clarity because that window will close and who knows when it will come back next, right? 

[00:19:07] Brianna: And not only do we need the support at the beginning, where in that moment of clarity, there is support. Afterwards, because what I have seen is, Once they're finished whatever in house program, they go back into society, and they're right back in the environment. They didn't receive an ADHD diagnosis or don't know what the root cause is, and they're still that whole once they re enter society.

[00:19:32] Brianna: they're right back in that community, they're right back with their friends who may or may not have been using, and there is no change. Outside of the system.

[00:19:40] Melissa: also is it is really important for support systems to be educated on what is needed post treatment that ongoing support system is so important. But if things don't change for everyone, that sets up a field for the person who has addiction problems to just start again.

[00:19:55] Melissa: so everyone needs to shift. It's not just the person who's going through treatment. It's.

[00:20:00] Melissa: It's everyone's mentality about, um, the problem needs to change. Everyone's way of communicating needs to change 

[00:20:06] Mark: It's very accurate. 

[00:20:07] Brianna: Yeah. So Mark, 

[00:20:09] Mark: when they're in recovery. And what about reintegration? What does that last piece look like?

[00:20:15] Mark: people like myself go away for 45 days. I have routine. I sleep really well. I'm eating really well. I have no caffeine after 12. no sugar. Blah, blah, blah, blah. The list goes on and on.

[00:20:26] Mark: All these wonderful things that really make me feel amazing. And then to be plucked out of that and back into the old environments and the old people and no supports, I'm maybe in my own, bachelor pad, staying up all hours, eating frozen pizzas, drinking pop, I'm naturally going to feel terrible after that.

[00:20:48] Mark: So it is that space after treatment. That is very, very important. And ideally, there should be a almost phased, 

[00:20:58] Mark: reintegration, you get out, you have a counselor every week or a psychologist or whomever, maybe the first couple months when you get out, every week.

[00:21:06] Mark: It's, it's quite intense. And then as you move on, it, it starts to dwindle down and eventually it just becomes kind of a case management thing. statistically, if you can make it to two years of abstinence, your chances of long term sobriety they skyrocket,

[00:21:20] Mark: and a lot of the brain healing and all of that happens over that two year period of time.

[00:21:25] Mark: We don't have the system to hold those people for that period of time. So it really becomes up to them. And, people just don't have the resources 

[00:21:33] Melissa: there was so much to talk about on this topic, but 

[00:21:36] Melissa: we're missing a piece here and I wanted to rewind a little bit. how is addiction treatment specific to people with ADHD? Because it may be a little bit different. The needs may be a little bit different. 

[00:21:45] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I don't necessarily think it is in many regards, they have to be in some ways. This is it. This is the program and you work within these means, right? So there isn't a lot of flexibility for Different individuals, you fall in line with this program and some of them work really well, of course, and some of them don't. Probably don't, um, you know, for me being provided that hardcore structure and routine going to the gym ways to, get pleasure and entertain and differences, There's variety there. you know, I was able to keep my attention. There was lots of different topics and, and, you know, lots of, of pieces really did fit well.

[00:22:32] Mark: Um, I was wondering about ADHD medication because there seems to be a divide in the medical community and in the treatment community about whether it's safe to allow.

[00:22:45] Melissa: People who have ADHD to use ADHD medication I'm speaking specifically about stimulant medication, um, in in their treatment programs, 

[00:22:52] Mark: I see this a lot and to be honest, so I think it was three years ago I read Scattered Minds by Gabor Mate and it absolutely blew me away. that was the wow moment, that really made me pursue a diagnosis, I got the diagnosis and I sat on the medication for a year. I'm in a 12 step group, the stigma of taking a stimulant would be, you know,I feared it. I also feared the potential of what if I take this and just go off again, right?

[00:23:22] Mark: And so there was a lot of back and forth and I just said, no, I'm not gonna take it. And then a year later, I said, you know what, after a lot of conversation and thought, I decided to try it. And my life has been. astronomically different since that day, like in so many ways.

[00:23:40] Mark: after that experience, and even before, I believe that medication has a purpose. It has a place. if it improves my quality of life and it is sustainable, why wouldn't I? Like, why wouldn't I use this amazing tool to improve my quality of life? Um, so that's my stance. I know everybody has their own. but regarding stimulants, it's like there is such a big stigma. I do think that the differences in medication will make a difference. For example, anything that's kind of that short, burst high arc,medication is going to be more likely to be abused, right? If I can take this thing and just kind of this high peak, I'm going to want to take it more because I'm going to come down and et cetera. the medication I take which I find has the long kind of slow rise and it lasts all day, right? And. I had absolutely no, pre occupation. I can't wait until I can take the next one. Maybe I'll take, like, none of that ever, ever occurred. That's me. it is going to be very individual. And I think it does come down to a case by case basis, you know, but is there a place for it? 100 percent is should treatment included 100 percent on an individual case by case basis, if it's monitored properly. And there is abuse happening, then, yeah, alternative methods are probably going to have to be found. because you don't want to just potentiate the, the addiction.

[00:25:18] Mark: But, that being said, you know, um, it changed my life. A hundred percent changed my life, so I can't knock it. 

[00:25:28] Brianna: Do you find that now that you're on your stimulant medication there is less thoughts of returning to addiction?

[00:25:36] Brianna: Oh, my God, yes. Absolutely. There's just way less, well, again, there's just way less desire to escape. I love my life. And, Um, I don't want to, I don't want to change it, of course, there's hard moments, no doubt, but there's just not that desire to escape, um, or to be different, or to feel different, None of those old recurring thoughts that would come back, That's amazing to 

[00:26:04] Mark: It's also, I haven't had, I used to have very bad panic, anxiety, depersonalization, derealization, those things really took a big toll and were huge contributing factors to my addiction. I haven't had one, Panic attack, anxiety episode since I started taking the medication, not a single one.

[00:26:24] Melissa: I had a very similar experience. I went off my medication for a couple of years and was having crippling anxiety and depression We tried different drugs for anxiety and depression once they added the stimulant medication back in for me, and then they took me off the other medication.

[00:26:41] Melissa: Anxiety was gone by, like, 90 percent of it was gone. So, yeah, and I just, I didn't put 2 and 2 together to understand that. The anxiety was that I just had so much going on up here and I just couldn't breathe. 

[00:26:54] Brianna: Well, that it leads to the addiction, right? Like there's, there's the problem. There's the hole. There's what you're trying to fill. 

[00:26:59] Mark: And there's a demonization of the word stimulant because when most people say stimulant, you think of cocaine, methamphetamine, right? So it's kind of demonized, but if people understood the mechanics behind it and you know, I love, the analogy of the traffic cop, right?

[00:27:15] Mark: without the medication. It's like a four way. busy street with people just trying to go and everybody's honking and this person's trying to go that way but the stimulant is like the traffic cop which is directing okay this thought goes and you know this idea or whatever and that's how it works it's not a drug where i'm flying around and staying up for three days none of that it's actually very much a calming organized, gentle thing. but people don't see it that way.

[00:27:45] Brianna: the metaphor was perfect, it's. Not the kind of drug that is going to cause addiction. It like, we wouldn't forget to take it if it caused addiction.I did have one more question for you. Is that. You came to stimulant medication after your recovery journey. Do you see it having a place during the recovery journey? Like, would that be a helpful thing for people or is it you've got to get clean first and then

[00:28:15] Mark: I often wonder, like at 20, when I first decided to take this journey I was prescribed everything under the sun over that 10 years, anti psychotics, antidepressants, anti anxieties, of course, nothing worked, but I, I, I wonder, and not in a regretfully regret way, but just In an inquiry way, what would life look like if I started this when I was 20?

[00:28:40] Mark: because it was at that point that depersonalization, derealization, panic, Really took away my choice to use. I no longer had a choice. It was a must or suffer these consequences, AKA the panic, right? So if those were taken away, well then, yeah, I wouldn't have had that hardcore drive, that lack of decision, if you will, to, to use.

[00:29:10] Mark: So yeah, there's a huge place. Now, does it need to be. monitored way more, of course, because if I'm using cocaine, if that's my substance of choice, you know, when you're combining the two, it can get very dangerous, right? So, yeah, I think there is time and place, but again, it's individual, right?

[00:29:29] Melissa: 

[00:29:29] Melissa: So

[00:29:29] Melissa: what you're saying is we actually need to listen to the individual and what their personal needs are.

[00:29:34] Mark: 100%. if we don't know their story, then we're never going to get to the root of the problem. We will end up just trying to maybe medicate our way out of it or, putting a lot of band aids on and that will eventually fall off and the person will be right back to where they were. 

[00:29:50] Melissa: you kind of brought us a little bit full circle here. Brianna, is there anything else like science wise you wanted to like bring in 

[00:29:55] Brianna: there are two points that you've made, Mark, that I really want to highlight is that people are telling themselves a story. And that is keeping them stuck in their addictions. And not only are people telling themselves that story, society is telling a story as well, in terms of what people are and aren't allowed support.

[00:30:15] Brianna: What supports do people deserve? And deserve is a terrible word when it comes to addiction support. understanding, building understanding, compassion, you use that word as well. And. having that support system and re authoring that narrative of this isn't, this doesn't have to be my story. I do deserve the support and that society then has to meet you where you're at.

[00:30:38] Brianna: Those are the key things for someone dealing with addiction and trying to recover. And then back to the ADHD and addiction piece. We talked about a little bit why we're talking about this, this topic today. Like, how does addiction have to do with ADHD? So there is a genetic predisposition to addictive personalities and addiction in ADHD due to our lack of dopamine, We also talked about the societal stigma, the discrimination, those pieces of both addiction and ADHD preventing resources and support and understanding from happening. There's also the ADHD traits that could lead to it. inattention, hyperactivity, risk taking, and all that impulsivity piece leading very easily into addiction where there are those risks.

[00:31:25] Brianna: if you are undiagnosed, or if you are not receiving support, or if there is no understanding, bullying, self esteem issues. Mark, your story of, you know, I was having all this anxiety, this depersonalization, this derealization, there was things happening in my life I had no control over, so I was looking for that one piece of control. So when your ADHD is unmanaged, when your life is not going the way you want it to, addiction isn't a problem.

[00:31:49] Brianna: It's the solution. It's not a great solution. So how do we find an alternative solution that actually helps people rather than leading them down a path that can harm themselves and others. 

[00:32:02] Mark: Yep. Amazing.

[00:32:05] Melissa: Mark, do you have any resources in Canada and the USA for if someone is having addiction issues and needs immediate resources or help, 

[00:32:12] Mark: I mean, there are many. 

[00:32:15] Brianna: so there's the Canada Centre for Mental Health, I forget the acronym right now, So the Center for Addiction and Mental Health is C. A. M. H.

[00:32:24] Melissa: you can call 811, you'll be able to talk to somebody who will point you toward the resources that you need within your area. 9 1 1 is obviously our emergency line I know in the United States, the, suicide prevention and crisis center is a 988 from your cell phone. 

[00:32:39] Brianna: if they want to specifically find you Mark, where can they find you?

[00:32:42] Mark: our name is Black and Gray Addiction Support, and Mark Gray, Andrew Blackbird, who's my partner, that's hence the name, and, I'm located in Newfoundland, he's in Nova Scotia, our website is blackandgrayaddictionsupport. com, and there's all of our resources, we do, one on one counselling, of course, but we also do a weekly recovery coaching group, which is an amazing group.

[00:33:07] Mark: We've been doing it for three or four years now. Um, and that's online. You can come in from anywhere. we also do like, um, daily contact. we talked about, kind of that aftercare. I have many clients that I text on a daily basis or call on a daily basis to continuously check in keep in touch. each other accountable and deal with the acute things that are happening in their lives. we offer that three tiered system that you can kind of get all at once or individually. 

[00:33:35] Brianna: That accountability

[00:33:36] Brianna: is amazing, especially for those of us with ADHD, accountability piece of having someone non judgmentally check in with you every day is such a huge piece.

[00:33:46] Mark: I think it's very necessary and, it's just not something many people do. and of course it takes time, every day, but that time is well worth it. 

[00:33:55] Melissa: And if you're in need of ADHD specific support, I'm an ADHD coach that can be found at likemindcoaching. com. 

[00:34:02] Brianna: I am also an ADHD coach and an intern therapist, and you can find me at understandingadhd. ca.

[00:34:09] Melissa: Mark, thank you so much for spending time with us today. We really appreciate it.

[00:34:13] Mark: Thank you so

[00:34:13] Mark: much for having me

[00:34:14] Melissa: we'll see you next time. Bye. 

[00:34:16] Brianna: Bye!

Bye.